If you haven't already seen it, check out the Dawkins-Lennox debate: http://www.dawkinslennoxdebate.com/
I thought Lennox did a good job hitting the major issues with Dawkins' atheism in general, and some of his more outrageous claims in his ('I'm just trying to be rational here...') provocatively titled book, "The God Delusion." Though, I do admit I was hoping he would be a bit more aggressive. Chalk it up to British diplomacy, I suppose.
As I watched the debate, I was struck by Dawkins' fascinatingly stubborn and narrow grasp of reality and history. He is also arrogant, and amusingly, apparently totally oblivious to the fact.
Did you note his frustratingly confused conception of (Christian) faith, on which Lennox rightly calls him to task?
Also note his remarkable statement: "I cannot see how one can logically derive evil from atheism"? Such a comment defies all reason and credibility, and I think, betrays the depth of his historical and philosophical naivete.
Of course, neither atheism nor theism, as abstract concepts, necessarily entail or logically require any particular behavior - good or bad. Dawkins' argument runs both ways! After all, as such, they're ill-defined. Belief in what kind of god(s)? And disbelief in what sort of divinity? Remember, the early Christians were called "atheists" because they rejected the local Greek and Roman deities!
Nevertheless, such 'naked concepts' as "atheism" and "theism" do not exist by themselves. Atheism and theism are always embodied within a particular set of beliefs, values, and practices. Theism, even when divorced from any historic religious tradition (a more and more common form of 'faith' today), by whomever and wherever it is held, is always embedded and contextualized within a complex ideological and cultural web - a worldview. Not all theists (nor theisms) are alike.
Dawkins' point of course is that religious incarnations of theism, entailing the authority of sacred books and/or traditions, with their various ethical instructions and ceremonial observances, are more liable to be used by religious fanatics to justify and even guide them in their violence. Atheism, on the other hand, he argues, is purely negative. As such, it has no such body of traditions, religious authorities, or ceremonies. But here is where his naivete is so apparent: he fails to see that atheism too, historically, has its own 'religious' garb! Atheism always exists, everywhere and at all times, within a network of social, political and even religious traditions, authorities and ceremonies. Behold Stalin's Marxism! Behold Pol Pot! Atheism was hardly incidental to their atrocities. It was, as Lennox rightly points out, fundamental in their 'cultural revolution' as Marxists. A stronger case might be made for social Darwinism, modern eugenics and the cold logic with which the Nazi's carried out "the final solution."
Atheism, in one form or another, may not require violence (though here Dawkin's brutish, Darwinian naturalism stares us in the face, "red in tooth and claw"); but, neither does atheism forbid violence. How can it? It is absolutely amoral, and for that reason, utterly unworthy as the foundation for our comprehension of the world. Even Dawkins confesses that his naturalistic atheism cannot guide us at all in moral decisions - a fairly large swath of the human experience, wouldn't you say?
And here is where I see Dawkins as not only an amusingly confused and arrogant man, but dangerous. Just as he sees Christianity as a delusion, and hardly harmless - containing within it the seeds of irrational evil, following blindly "by faith" a morally horrific book - so I see his brand of atheism (refreshingly committed to belief in the truth as universal and absolute, I admit with Lennox) as not only deluded, but fundamentally depraved. Just as he fears the religious fanatic, absolutely committed to his faith (quite apart from reason and evidence, as Dawkins' frames these), so I fear the likes of Dawkins: a 'religious' zealot, absolutely convinced in his faith (his conception of 'rationality'). What's scary is that, unlike Christianity, his is fundamentally amoral. And amorality isn't amoral; as Augustine pointed out, a lack of good is nothing other than evil itself.
What is this brave, new ideological amorality Dawkins thrusts upon us - in the guise of the objective scientist ("....just following the facts," we are told)? Does he himself understand that it signifies the deconstruction of all moral values - do we see that it represents the unhinging of the world as we know it? What "rough beast" has been unleashed in our civilized and modern age? What sort of delusion is this (2Th.2:11)?
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Monday, May 19, 2008
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10 comments:
"Does he himself understand that it signifies the deconstruction of all moral values?"
I honestly think at one time we pulled out morals from religion. We supported slavery, genocidal murder, the subjugation of women, etc, and mix in the golden rule and don't kill, don't lie, don't covet your neighbors belongings.
But now the zeitgeist is moving us away from those religious morals above, and toward a more enlightened phase of humanity. Sure, we take the good lessons that have been preached by the various religions and dump the negatives.
My biggest problem with your blog is that there's no discussion on the factuality of the claim for the existence of god. You're just appealing to consequences. Atheism "might" lead to microwaving beautiful little kittens, but that wouldn't make what it proposes any more or less factual. Cheers!
Rather than going through your whole post, I'd like to point out the things you claim atheism "replaces" are necesary social functions taken over by religion.
And then you blame communism and facism on atheism and evolution. To bad the first mention of communism is a theocratic state (Plato).
As for the Final Solution... antisemitism anyone? Seriously- it is as obvious as the nose on my face.
Atheism isn't about morality- it is about belief. Morality is about morality. Amazing concept eh?
Some day we WILL crush those mushy idiots- the relativists, the nihlists, the faith makes me feel good people. Well... we can hope. It is nice to see you feel the same way.
Hmmm... Darron says it better. I'm more of a fallacy searcher.
Darron,
I agree with you that the 'zeitgeist' is moving us away from morality as grounded in biblical revelation. But what is left? A morality grounded in what sort of authority or rationality? Lennox's reference to David Hume is spot on: naturalistic reductionism leaves us not only cold, but morally impotent. We can derive any moral force (an "oughtness") from amoral matter (an "is").
I do assume God's existence on this blog (as the title might suggest). But to briefly address your criticism, theism is the only rational assumption to make. Atheism, as Lennox also briefly pointed out, is self-defeating because, according to its naturalistic incarnation, it lacks any metaphysical ground on which to establish rationality, and worse, undercuts it, by reducing the world to matter and irrational processes.
Atheism, though initially apparently reasonable (particularly in our modern world), is fundamentally untenable: it self-destructs. As Francis Bacon observed, "A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion."
Samuel,
I'm not sure I follow your comments. But I would only add that communism (particularly Plato's form - which isn't really communism, is it?) is not the same as Marxism. Marxism is atheistic, and its atheism, as I noted, lies at the core of its critique of history and its meaning.
Plato's Republic owns all the property and is a dictatorial, stratified police state. Technically the Soviet Union would qualify more for falling under Plato's definition than Marx.
After Plato, you had more hopeful and liberal communists that occasionally pop up. When the Enlightenment swings around you get socialism.
At this time Marx pops up. He decides to make HIS socialism "scientific". Yeah- that works well.
Anyway, atheism is not essential to Marx's atheism. Marx say religion as a tool used by the upper classes to control the lower classes and, in all due fairness, this was pretty true in Europe (the Anglican church and the Eastern Orthodox churches where literally branches of the English and Russian government respectively).
Marxism is secular and atheistic- it takes for granted Gods don't exist.
Other forms of communism AREN'T atheistic. For example the Inca. It just happens that the atheistic forms of communism are 1) the more liberal ones and 2) the only ones that have been attempted in modern times.
Now for your critique of Darron.
What can we ground morality on? Well, there is always the definition of the word. You know, doing the right thing, reducing suffering, spreading happiness. It is an easy way out, the only flaw is... wait there is no flaw to this approach. The only problem is figuring out what reduces suffering, increases happiness, etc the most.
You don't understand naturalism then. You seem to think it is self refuting because it undercuts reason because it doesn't have invisible support pillars for reason. You know how atheists deal with this?
Reason is works. We don't need to know why. However, if you are curious- the reason reason works is because a universe where it didn't work could not exist. Why?
Because a universe that isn't coherent has no rules, no fundamental unity. And if that isn't there, what is to stop it from spontaneously adopting new laws? Until it gets ones that WON'T change- ones that are logical.
Just my opinion. However, it does make sense.
Also, no one assumes God exists- they assume THEIR God exists. BIG difference.
Samuel,
Let me respond to your comments a piece at a time...
"Plato's Republic owns all the property and is a dictatorial, stratified police state. Technically the Soviet Union would qualify more for falling under Plato's definition than Marx."
Definition of what? Communism? Socialism? Marxism? These certainly overlap, but they are historically distinguished. I was speaking of Marxism in the post. Though there are clearly communistic aspects of the Republic (including the sharing of wives and childre), I'm not sure we can simply label it "Communism," in its modern sense. That is a bit of an anachronism.
"At this time Marx pops up. He decides to make HIS socialism "scientific". Yeah- that works well.
"Anyway, atheism is not essential to Marx's atheism."
??? I assume you mean his brand of socialism. But I would take issue with this statement. His atheism is basic to his arguments about class warfare, which he takes as fundamental to history. He turns ole Hegel on his head, and makes socio-economic dynamics the fundamental force of history, rather than the unfolding "Reason" (with its semi-eschatological telos) of Hegel's "Zeitgeist".
"Marxism is secular and atheistic- it takes for granted Gods don't exist."
Yes. And this is elemental to his critique of religion and the state.
"Other forms of communism AREN'T atheistic."
True. Some claim the early church was functionally communistic - but again, I suppose it all depends on how one defines the word.
But, again, my statements were with respect to Marxism and its permutations.
"What can we ground morality on? Well, there is always the definition of the word. You know, doing the right thing, reducing suffering, spreading happiness."
Whose definition? Surely you're aware that this question has plagued ethicists since (at least) Socrates: what is good? It is hardly a well-defined term.
"It is an easy way out, the only flaw is... wait there is no flaw to this approach. The only problem is figuring out what reduces suffering, increases happiness, etc the most."
There is a problem, after all - as Socrates notes. What determines that such is good? Or rather, what gives it moral force, such that, it "ought" to be done? If I, for whatever reason and with whatever justification (e.g., utilitarinism) define good as the reducing of suffering (and even that is fuzzy - whose suffering, and how is it quantified?), then it does not follow, as Hume pointed out, that such "ought" to be done. What makes this "good" existentially, rationally, and situationally compelling?
"You don't understand naturalism then. You seem to think it is self refuting because it undercuts reason because it doesn't have invisible support pillars for reason. You know how atheists deal with this?
Reason is works."
So you're a pragmatist. What works is true. However, there are innumerable problems with this, as I'm sure you're aware. What are the parameters that define "what works"? What 'works' for whom? The bourgeoisie? The proletariat? The fittest? Or the unfit? The majority? The marginalized minority? Men? Women? Masters? Slaves? Americans? Iranians? Palestinians? Israelies? Chinese? Etc., etc.
"We don't need to know why."
Yes, you assume what you don't understand (and cannot be explained). Your assumptions are riddled with questions. Most importantly, you cannot rationally justify your assumptions.
"However, if you are curious- the reason reason works is because a universe where it didn't work could not exist."
Yes indeed. Yet, this only begs the question, doesn't it?
"Because a universe that isn't coherent has no rules, no fundamental unity. And if that isn't there, what is to stop it from spontaneously adopting new laws? Until it gets ones that WON'T change- ones that are logical."
And even that is an assumption. Can we truly know that the universe's laws do not change? Isn't this one of the fundamental presuppositions of science - by defnition, it cannot be proved within the bounds of the scientific method - uniformitarianism?
Also, where does rationality inhere in the universe? Using this language of "law" is surely metaphorical. Do you believe that the laws of logic, for example, are material? Or are they immaterial?
No doubt reason works. And no doubt a reasonable universe is the only sort in which rational minds can ask "why does it work?" This is essentially the anthropic principle. But, as Lennox points out, this fails to answer the question: why is there a reasonable universe at all?
Whence comes this rational world? This isn't only a philosophical question, but a physical one. How did natural law develop? Which came first in the evolution of the cosmos? The laws of logic and nature, or rather did the material patterns of matter-energy dynamics emerge (irrationally, by definition) over time?
But can irrationality and void be the foundation for rationality and meaning?
Only be assuming what you wish to prove: they must have, because here we are!
And going back to the earlier question, can we justify the assertion that what "works" is therefore true - trustworthy? Is it good?
Big questions. I'd be curious to hear your answers.
Well yes, Marxism is atheistic. I thought we were talking about communism.
I was under the impression it didn't require atheism due to the... religiousness in some Marxist states (North Korea for starters). So either it fits with theism or the communists we had weren't "true" Marxists.
Of course the problem in criticizing Marxism is that none of the communist states were Marxist- sort of like there has been no "true Christian state/society.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=121428
Here is an interesting discussion/explanation.
Uh... how is any of your criticism relevant? I know it sounds fine and dandy, but when you come down to it you are saying "well, it is a nice idea, but do you have any details?"
Given that psychology fills three college courses to get the foundations... morality would take ALOT of writing to. However, just like psychology, morality can be summed up in a sentance.
I need to be more specific. I am not talking about truth for what works- I am talking about processes. By default processes that work better are the ones we adopt. For example, warfare is a good example of a process- it is theprocess of turning living people into dead ones.
Processes are neither true nor false- they are judged solely on their efficiency.
Reason, science, faith, etc... are all process.
I don't need to explain why it works for a verysimple reason- I can show that it DOES work. People are interested in the explanation because it gives them additional insight; however, just because I can't tell you how a computer works doesn't mean you shouldn't use one.
Firstly, uniformitarianism is NOT the basis of science. The thing you are refering to is... don't remember.
Anyway "rules" are NOT material. However, they are inherent in... what is the phrase? Organized systems? For example, texture doesn't exist on the atomic level. Properties emerge from the understructure of reality- its basic parts.
Rules didn't "develop"- they are intrinsic to our universe.
Random chance did not spawn reason. Evolution is NOT random. Mutations are, but natural selection isn't!
Once again, I was refering to processes. In the case of reason, logic and evidence we hold them as reliable method of understanding reality (making predictions, making new discoveries, building tools) because that is what they actually achieve. The argument sounds circular because it is so basic- looking at reality allows us to understand it.
Samuel,
Same routine... :)
"Of course the problem in criticizing Marxism is that none of the communist states were Marxist- sort of like there has been no "true Christian state/society."
Right. Yet, Dawkins has no problem blaming Christianity or theism for certain historic evils, while exonerating atheism from any. When it comes to historic religion, he has no problems with broad brush strokes and strawmen, but apparently wished to paint with a fine line when it comes to atheism.
"However, just like psychology, morality can be summed up in a sentance."
Really? Okay...shoot!
"I need to be more specific. I am not talking about truth for what works- I am talking about processes. By default processes that work better are the ones we adopt. For example, warfare is a good example of a process- it is theprocess of turning living people into dead ones.
Processes are neither true nor false- they are judged solely on their efficiency."
Yes, and sometime war is terribly efficient. But is it good?
"I don't need to explain why it works for a very simple reason- I can show that it DOES work. People are interested in the explanation because it gives them additional insight; however, just because I can't tell you how a computer works doesn't mean you shouldn't use one."
Acutally, if I didn't know how a computer works in principle, then I would be a fool to trust its output...wouldn't you agree?
"Firstly, uniformitarianism is NOT the basis of science."
I never said it was THE basis of science. Rather, I said it is a basic presupposition - which it most certainly is. Namely, the assmption that natural law is constant and unversal - transcending (to use a heavy, philosophical term) time and space.
"The thing you are refering to is... don't remember."
Not sure what you're thinking of...
"Anyway "rules" are NOT material. However, they are inherent in... what is the phrase? Organized systems? For example, texture doesn't exist on the atomic level."
Texture doesn't exist at all. Or does it? Are you a nominalist or a realist?
"Properties emerge from the understructure of reality- its basic parts."
What are the "equations of motion" that describe this emergence of properties? Properties, such as texture, are abstractions, and many of them, artificial ones. This is why are there hundreds of volumes written on the nature of properties.
"Rules didn't "develop"- they are intrinsic to our universe."
Very interesting... I would agree, of course. So matter and energy, together with the space-time continuim itself, are intrinsically rationally ordered phenomenon.
I ask then, where did these rational principles, intrinsic to the raw materials of the natural universe, come from? Did they just appear by chance - irrationally?
"Random chance did not spawn reason."
Oh! Okay, so something or someone rational must be behind the universe as a rationally ordered world. Sounds very Platonic, very Aristotelian, very Newtonian, very Einsteinian, very...theistic.
"Evolution is NOT random. Mutations are, but natural selection isn't!"
Agreed. But the processes in and behind natural selection, from a purely atheistic, naturalistic perspective, are ultimatley the result of chance...correct?
"Once again, I was refering to processes."
So reason and logic are not processes themselves? They transcend processes? That certainly makes sense. But are they real, or only artifices of human abstraction and perception? If they are real (which science functionally assumes), can they be observed and measured, or must they be assumed?
Of course, as many philosophers of science will tell us, the latter is the case. They cannot be measure or quantified; they transend natural processes, and so seem to be in a real sense...transcendent, that is to say, immaterial.
(Ontological, in contrast to methodological) materialism would not then be entirely correct, would it?
"In the case of reason, logic and evidence we hold them as reliable method of understanding reality (making predictions, making new discoveries, building tools) because that is what they actually achieve."
Agreed. Indeed, without logic, thought is unthinkable. But what is reason, exactly? What makes reason reason, and other forms of thought unreasonable? What kind of reason are speaking of? What about the reason of faith? Faith in the divine is efficient in facing difficult, existential questions, answering conundrums and cultivating practical wisdom and character. Which brings me to the next thing... What constitutes evidence? Are we talking purely of the scientific method here, or can we include the innumerable evidences for faith peculiar to each individual?
"The argument sounds circular because it is so basic-"
In addition to being very imprecise, you're argument is circular. But then, so are all accounts of final authority - whether "reason," variously conceived, or religious authorities, like sacred books. That is the nature of appeals to ultimate authority. But the critical question is whether your circle expands to include the whole of human experience, or spirals in on itself, collapsing in on itself.
"looking at reality allows us to understand it."
We never just look at reality. We bring all of our assumptions, categories and biases with it. This is why scientists are critical realists, rather than naive. We must distinguish reality from our perceptions.
Moreover, we must assume to understand. Or as, St. Anselm put it: "I believe so that I might understand."
The question is: are such assumptions warranted and justified within our system of belief and its correspondence with the human experience in the world?
Marxism is an impossible idea. Hence it is useless and rather stupid.
Christianity is similar- unlike say Islam, Hinduism or Judaism, there has never been a truly Christian society. The New Testament does not work as a blue print for a society. Try it- give away all you possessions. Ironically it doesn't work for the same reason Marxism doesn't- people don't work that way.
Unlike Marxism, Christianity makes a hard science prediction... actually so does Marxism. They both are bad.
Morality is a process (like logic, war, science, etc). Its goal is to increase the happiness and well being of others. This is a general happiness, because different people value different things (for example heat vs cold, security vs change, etc). Morality is concerned with finding out how to maximize happiness and well being for everyone.
One sentence explanation, two sentences of qualification.
Processes are not about good or evil, right and wrong. They are about getting the desired end result. For example, war's goal is to win. Logic's goal is to remove things that can't be true from the list of possibilities. They are tools- nothing more and nothing less. Like all tools they can be used for good or for hurting people.
Uh... no, not really. Do you know how municipal plumbing works? Probably not. When you flush, you don't worry that your toilet will... you get the idea.
There are a large number of things we don't know. We DON'T need to invent explanations for them. If they are important we can study them in depth, but we don't need to. Unless it is our job.
Nope. Uniformitarianism is the principle that the current natural processes are the ones that have shaped the Earth. You are using the wrong word. The correct one would be Universalism- the laws of physics are universal through time and space.
It doesn't imply laws transcend time and space- only that they don't change. One way would be if they were part of space and time.
I said texture doesn't exist on an atomic level. And this is true- if you could feel and atom it has no texture. Texture is an emergent property- it comes out of having a mass of atoms and their interaction with Each other, their surroundings and your hand.
The universe is rational for a very simple reason- irrational universes can't exist. To be irrational means it is internally contradictory.
I'm using our universe's rules to decide that, but I don't think a universe that is so... fluid could exist- it would change into a more stable form.
Mutations are random. Natural selection isn't. The forces behind natural selection are based on the environment which isn't random (although it is chaotic). However, it is based on matter and energy itself, which IS random.
Here- do yourself a favor. Look up the concept of emergent properties. It explains a lot of what I'm saying and will save us time.
Assumptions are justified when it is physically impossible not to hold them. It doesn't make them true, only justified.
Samuel,
Here we go again...
"Marxism is an impossible idea...Christianity is similar- unlike say Islam, Hinduism or Judaism, there has never been a truly Christian society."
First, you must define what you mean by a Christian society. Second, you must distinguish Christianity from Marxism. Marxism is a political theory. Christianity is a theological understanding of the world.
"The New Testament does not work as a blue print for a society. Try it- give away all you possessions."
This example demonstrates that you do not understand Christianity. Christianity does not demand a vow of poverty. Read the account of the churches in Acts (and check out Paul's comments about wealth in 1 Timothy).
"Ironically it doesn't work for the same reason Marxism doesn't- people don't work that way."
I find, rather, that Christianity has the only true and sane grasp on understanding people. Have you read much of Pascal on this question? Brilliant stuff...
"Unlike Marxism, Christianity makes a hard science prediction... actually so does Marxism. They both are bad."
???
"Morality is a process (like logic, war, science, etc). Its goal is to increase the happiness and well being of others."
According to whom? On what basis do you so define and delimit morality?
"This is a general happiness, because different people value different things (for example heat vs cold, security vs change, etc)..."
Or killing infidels over tolerance, exterminating the weak over caring for and giving special attention to the weak, ignoring suffering as an illusion or karmic redemption, and working to alleviate suffering in all peoples...
"Morality is concerned with finding out how to maximize happiness and well being for everyone."
Says who? What is your justification? Can you rationally demonstrate this as true? Are you asking us to accept this on faith - as a sort of "self-evident truth"? If so, they are clearly not self-evident to everyone...
"Processes are not about good or evil, right and wrong. They are about getting the desired end result. For example, war's goal is to win. Logic's goal is to remove things that can't be true from the list of possibilities. They are tools- nothing more and nothing less. Like all tools they can be used for good or for hurting people."
Actually logic, strictly speaking, does not deal with truth per se, but with what is valid in argumentation. I can start with a false premise, and have a logically rigorous and valid (though false) argument.
"Uh... no, not really. Do you know how municipal plumbing works? Probably not. When you flush, you don't worry that your toilet will... you get the idea."
I understand the basic premise, though. And more importantly, the plumbers installing it understand the process - the point is, there is a rationale for plumbing that can be explained.
"There are a large number of things we don't know. We DON'T need to invent explanations for them. If they are important we can study them in depth, but we don't need to. Unless it is our job."
Exactly. Someone understands them - and we have ground for trusting their expertise (or so we think we do). There is a rational justification then for our using such things, even when we ourselves don't fully understand the intricacies invovled.
"Nope. Uniformitarianism is the principle that the current natural processes are the ones that have shaped the Earth."
That is the geological explanation. However, in philosopy of science, it refers to the constancy of natural law throughout space-time.
"You are using the wrong word. The correct one would be Universalism- the laws of physics are universal through time and space."
I've never encountered that particular term, that i can recall, used to define the concept in any of the literature on philosophy of science. Nevertheless, which ever term you like, the concept holds: we must presuppose this 'truth' in order to do science. It is a truth which finds warrant within a theistic framework, but I fail to see its rationale in an atheistic worldview.
"It doesn't imply laws transcend time and space- only that they don't change."
I.e., transcend space and time (which, by definition, changes - change is the essence of time as the succession of events...you never step in the same river twice, that sort of thing).
"One way would be if they were part of space and time."
What does that mean? Even if that it is a meaningful statement, it would suggest that they too are subject to change.
"The universe is rational for a very simple reason- irrational universes can't exist. To be irrational means it is internally contradictory."
This is true in modal logic. Logically possible worlds... Having said that, it is conceivable that there exists universes in which certain presuppositions of science do not hold - such as uniformitarianism (or universalism).
"I'm using our universe's rules to decide that, but I don't think a universe that is so... fluid could exist- it would change into a more stable form."
Or it would fall apart. Conceivably, we are in a universe that is falling apart... The laws, theoretically, of physics could possibly change, and render the scientific endeavor impossible.
Science depends on the faith that the universe is rational and consistent. Again, this makes perfect sense from a theistic perspective, in which we assume a rational Creator, but I don't know that it has warrant in an atheistic world governed, fundamentally, by chance - unless you apply deity-like attributes to the laws of nature: eternality and self-existence.
"Mutations are random. Natural selection isn't. The forces behind natural selection are based on the environment which isn't random (although it is chaotic). However, it is based on matter and energy itself, which IS random."
So it is based on what is random...?
"Here- do yourself a favor. Look up the concept of emergent properties. It explains a lot of what I'm saying and will save us time."
I have read quite a bit on it. Particularly in the areas of chaotic theory and emergence in complex systems.
"Assumptions are justified when it is physically impossible not to hold them..."
Physically impossible? You do realize that men and women have held to contrary assumptions of modern science for millennia. It is physically possible.
The deeper question is whether those assumptions 'jive' (logically consistent) with the rest of your undertanding of the world. Yours is rooted, as you yourself stated above, in chance. Such rationality and consistency is hard to justify on such a (non-real) ground.
You are quite right that modern science is impossible without such assumptions. But this only proves, in my understanding, the theoretical weakness of atheism. Theism, however, provides a rich metaphysical ground and rationale for such assumptions.
For this, and other reasons, I think that theism is the superior understanding of the world. It is far more robust.
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